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Post by Dékete moi sónt on Mar 9, 2023 0:14:23 GMT -3
Since I put my current user name between quote marks, I may as well start with that - I initially meant it be only my blog's name, not mine (you may have noticed Toward Ecosophy's administrator is called "ecosophia", so a Dreamwidth blog's administrator can have a different name from their blog), so I may change my name later and leave my blog ( deketemoisont.dreamwidth.org ) the same. ATM I'm not at all willing to write my legal name in public in this context, not because I'm afraid of being associated with occultism elsewhere per se, but because I'd rather no such association occurred before I developed the most minimal competence (we'll get there). If you actually considered asking what my current user name means, see ceisiwrserith.com/ritual/practice/adfrituals/ritualphrases.htm - I'd highly recommend that site at a minimum to any European deity worshippers, arguably to any polytheists or even to all people of good taste in reading. Until a few years ago, I was a moderately stereotypical atheist (more stereotypical further before), who read a peak-oil blog (I'll be damned if this forum comes to have readers who don't get the reference!). Upon thinking religion/occultism might not be something only stupid people have based on some strong evidence of the contrary (note: I still believe the that just about the entire set of people I knew previously that I based my previous opinion on *is* in fact stupid), I started reading occultism by authors other than the Spengler-quoting archdruid, and then considering what to practice: I seriously considered beginning with works by John Michael Greer, Jason Miller, Stephen "Edred Thorsson" Flowers, Ian Corrigan, and Michael Kelly; by the time I actually started practicing, The Sacred Geometry Oracle and The Way of the Golden Section had been published, and I thought those were the absolute best in terms of being usable by beginning people with just about any prior set of beliefs (which you might notice might be relevant to someone who still doesn't think "atheist" is a wrong term for themself). So my current practice is mostly the basics of the 2 books above, plus a few other basic things. I think it's reasonable for me to think I achieved some effects with those, but AFAIK nothing a physicalist couldn't explain as psychological - that said, should I have achieved those through those means, and nothing beyond the psychological be to expect, I'd consider I have a pretty good argument to continue in any case. So, I can't visualize worth a damn, and, while my best decisions this year were indeed those having had the most promising divination results, I don't think I have evidence the SGO thus far gave me information I couldn't (in fact, wouldn't) have obtained through other means (but it's been a few months only) - but I firmly intend to continue. I've been wanting to talk to people with common interests more than I'd had the opprtunity to some time ago (very recently, it'd been improving before I opened this board, but still can improve further), but I guess particularly about anything I'm actually *doing*, hence this message board. Welcome, and be blessed (I'd walk past you if I could!), all others who take this work seriously! |
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Post by Jeff Russell on Mar 14, 2023 13:14:19 GMT -3
Ah, thank you for explaining the name, I hadn't put that together yet, and I hadn't encountered Serith's guide, so that's a handy resource.
I very much agree the GSF work is wonderful for beginners of many different backgrounds. I've even been tempted to set aside what I've been working on and start there so I can do everything "right", but prayer and divination suggests that's not helpful. Oh well, lots of time in the long run.
Forgive me if this has come up in our discussions elsewhere, but have you read JMG's World Full of Gods? For me, that provided the intellectual framework sufficient to conduct an experiment in non-physicalist/materialist belief, though it was also building on the foundation of "huh, I've met/learned from folks who are obviously not dummies and take this religion thing seriously." I had gotten some positive results from doing the work in the First Door of Thorsson's Nine Doors of Midgard from the standpoint of "this is all explainable as psychological", but nothing very dramatic, and I set it aside when life got hard in other ways. Then I read WFoG, thought "sure, I'll do my best to believe there are other beings out there when I do this stuff" and cobbled together JMG's Heathen LBRP+MP, Meditation on the Runes and the Voluspa, and a daily three-Rune draw. Within a couple of weeks, I had much more dramatic results than the ~1 year of NDoM work.
Now, I'm pretty sure I've shared the above before, but I wanted to explain a little more explicitly that at this point, you might characterize much of my view of metaphysics as "working hypothesis" rather than "yup, I definitely know how things work." It's quite possible that most (all?) of my experiences that I currently attribute to interaction with non-physical beings/forces are, in fact, some combination of getting in better touch with subconscious sources of knowledge, getting insights through exposure to random/quasi-random patterns and forcing an interpretation, and plain old imagination/hallucination. Currently, my stance is something like "if this is crazy, it's a flavor of crazy that makes me happier, kinder, and more fulfilled, so maybe it's worth sticking with even if wrong. But it would be weird if it were wrong and had those effects." Also, I've had a few experiences/insights that would be either striking coincidence or rather impressive intuitive leaps if they were "all in my head."
All of which is a long-winded way to say that I agree with you that the GSF work is very likely still very helpful if understood in an atheistic way, but I wanted to (again?) share my own experience with treating this kind of work that way versus not, in case that's helpful. Also, frankly, I've still got a lot of residual "I don't want people to think I'm nuts for believing I'm talking to Gods and spirits."
Thanks again for putting this together, and may you be blessed in your own work!
Jeff
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Post by Dékete moi sónt on Mar 17, 2023 21:59:17 GMT -3
"but prayer and divination suggests that's not helpful." - and that august source known as "JMG", and I, would agree. In the medium run we all practiced more than 1 system, and in the long run, you know!  "Forgive me if this has come up in our discussions elsewhere" - I understand completely - they've been far too voluminous for you to check! (At most half a joke, probably much less.) "have you read JMG's World Full of Gods?" - had read a little, it's the book I'll finish now as the WGS's Evening Exercise with your recommendation. (Had just finished the most recent by Don Webb and was goind to go back to JMG anyway, but was thinking about the Druidry/Druid Magic Handbook - yes, either one for the first time.) "Within a couple of weeks, I had much more dramatic results than the ~1 year of NDoM work." - OK, but do you believe this to be *only* due to your theological shift, and nothing about relative merit of NDoM? I'm invoking deities as part of the SoP, and I don't think any hesitation about that I may have has to do with anybody *else's* opinion! Thanks! |
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Post by Jeff Russell on Mar 18, 2023 2:34:03 GMT -3
"but prayer and divination suggests that's not helpful." - and that august source known as "JMG", and I, would agree. In the medium run we all practiced more than 1 system, and in the long run, you know! Indeed! It's sometimes frustrating trying to follow someone's sensible advice in the face of his own tempting diversions from that advice. "Forgive me if this has come up in our discussions elsewhere" - I understand completely - they've been far too voluminous for you to check! (At most half a joke, probably much less.)i
If I ever start giving anyone guff about going on at too much length, the hypocrisy police won't be far behind. had read a little, it's the book I'll finish now as the WGS's Evening Exercise with your recommendation. (Had just finished the most recent by Don Webb and was goind to go back to JMG anyway, but was thinking about the Druidry/Druid Magic Handbook - yes, either one for the first time.)
I found this book tremendously helpful. Some prior experience (reading Mere Christianity, having smart friends who were religious) had convinced me that smart != atheist, but World Full of Gods pointed out that the two strongest pillars of atheism/hard agnosticism I had encountered were not unassailable. Pillar one was the set of arguments against a monotheist God that don't carry much weight if you're a polytheist (like all of the theodicy arguments), and Pillar Two was the idea that things that can't be described/conceived of in material terms aren't worth thinking about rationally. If/when you read more of it, I'll be interested to hear your reaction, especially if you don't find it as convincing as I did. OK, but do you believe this to be *only* due to your theological shift, and nothing about relative merit of NDoM?
That's a very interesting question, and one that's hard to answer. Based on some of my subsequent experiences, the NDoM work seems like it would likely be pretty effective, if approached with the appropriate mindset and worldview. On the other hand, Thorsson's work is already at least half agnostic/soft polytheist/non-worshipful, so maybe I'm wrong here. What I can say from experience is that I meditated my way through the Runes pretty extensively, and I got to where I could do some decent divination, but I didn't have any life-changing spiritual experiences. To be fair, I was also going through a lot - my mom died and my first daughter was born. So there were a lot of confounding variables in the mix, to say the least. On the other hand, when I very explicitly said "you know what, my attempt to treat this as 'all in my head' had some benefit, but not a lot, and I'm not intellectually convinced that polytheism might be workable, so yeah, I'm gonna do my best to take seriously the idea that I'm praying to actual Gods and Goddesses here," within a few weeks, I did have some experiences that I could only explain as either "yup, this religion [stuff] works" or as "wow, I had the expected kind of hallucinations for 'religion', and they were as great as everyone says they are, so if I'm nuts, I can see why folks go with it." I'm invoking deities as part of the SoP, and I don't think any hesitation about that I may have has to do with anybody *else's* opinion! Thanks!Fair enough, and good on you! If anything, for me, taking seriously the idea of letting go my own hesitation about invoking deities was a big and important step. I've absorbed enough Druid teaching to not want to push you in any particular direction.
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Post by Dékete moi sónt on Mar 23, 2023 0:02:29 GMT -3
If I ever start giving anyone guff about going on at too much length, the hypocrisy police won't be far behind. No complaints from this direction either! If/when you read more of it, I'll be interested to hear your reaction, especially if you don't find it as convincing as I did. I'll finish reading it after I'm done posting, and find the right context to talk about it later. For now: my previous low-for-a-JMG-book-interest had been due to thining the argumentation was set for a too-low-for-me level of previous relevant knowledge; I might still call that partly true, but having read nearly all of it, yes, there's more relevant-for-me stuff than I was thinking. It does sound like your situation having been unusually bad prevents us from easily concluding it was a shortcoming in Flowers' work - and, well, it's certainly *at least* gonna take me a good time to check! I've absorbed enough Druid teaching to not want to push you in any particular direction. Yes, that's worth remembering, and thanks for all of those! |
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